Talk:Houghton and Ensign

This is a mess; there is a lot of overlap between the Sanderson, Houghton, Barnet Ensign, Ross, Barnet Ensign Ross and Ross-Ensign. We are also missing pages for a vast range of cameras under the Ensign and related names, many of which would fit into several of the makers categories.

If anyone has any more models, please add them; some rationalisation of the pages and links between them possibly needs to wait on getting a more comprehensive list of cameras and their origins. Overall, this is a very significant group of makers and ought to have better coverage. I will look for more stuff.

--Awcam 21:28, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

You're right. My approach would be to decide of group Houghton(s), Houghton-Butcher, Barnet-Ensign, Barnet Ensign Ross and Ross-Ensign together in one page called "Houghton". We would have to merge the current contents of Houghton, Houghton-Butcher and Ross-Ensign. We can keep a separate page for Ross, describing the pre-1948 Ross cameras, and perhaps all of Ross lenses. We can also keep a page for the Sanderson cameras before the merge, and we probably need a separate page for the early Butcher. Once the scope of the pages is settled, we can complete the camera list, and make it categorized rather than alphabetical. --Rebollo fr 05:36, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

No. First we need a page "Butcher". Don't put everything into the Houghton-pot. Its an idea like Awcam's Instamatic page to make a list of all Ensign brand cameras separately. Thus the structure Houghton, Houghton-Butcher, and Ross-Ensign can stay was worked out. It's just the list of Ensign cameras which fills the Houghton-Butcher page inappropriately. U. Kulick 14:59, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

I disagree. When Ross was merged into Barnet-Ensign, it was a lens maker exclusively, and the merge did not change anything to the camera line. I see no point to separate Houghton-Butcher from Ross-Ensign, no more than to separate Houghton-Butcher from Barnet-Ensign only because it was absorbed by the film maker Barnet. Would you want to list the Ensign Selfix 420 under Houghton-Butcher and the Ensign Selfix 820 under Ross-Ensign? and list the Ensign Commando (made before and after 1948) under two different manufacturers?

I might see the point of separating Houghton, Butcher and Houghton-Butcher, because the two separate camera lines were merged into a single one. Yet I prefer having Houghton and Houghton-Butcher in the same page.

This is also the choice made by McKeown and by Channing and Dunn in their book on British manufacturers. Quoting Channing and Dunn: "To avoid split-references all cameras marketed by the companies listed in the heading [namely Barnet Ensign, Barnet Ensign Ross and Ross Ensign] have been included in the Houghtons entry. Ross Ltd have an entry in their own right of course [for prewar Ross cameras]." --Rebollo fr 15:25, 22 April 2008 (EDT)