Talk:Reisekamera

Double article? why?

Jan,

You, the author of the second variant of this article, see the Reisekamera as derived from the studio camera. But looking a little deeper into camera history these cameras were obviously derived from early portable camera designs. The earliest bellows cameras were made in 1839, and (according to Kleffe/Langner) simple predecessors maybe even used by Niépce. Of course this invention lead soon to portable camera constructions. One of the camera designs is shown by R.C. Smith, looking almost like the direct predecessor of the Reisekamera.

Another issue is that Reisekameras were not just made with non-tapering bellows. A lot were made with tapering bellows. And the student camera or Schülerkamera (German) became a common variant, with 9x12 plate format the predecessor of one common European plate camera size before WWII.

The non tailboard camera types of the Reisekamera are missing in the second text variant

I've put most of Your text into the upper variant of the article. Thus, sorry, it looks like we have a little redundancy. U. Kulick 18:51, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Difference with "field camera"

Isn't "Reisekamera" the German word for a "field camera", which is a view camera with which you can go to the field? When I read the description of "field camera" in this or this page at Wikipedia, I don't understand the difference between both concepts. --Rebollo fr 07:06, 3 January 2009 (EST)

No. Reisekamera is to be translated as "travel camera". The topic of the article is the type of camera that was marketed as a distinguishable kind of view camera mainly under the names "Reisekamera", "Reise-Camera", "Schüler-Kamera" (student's camera), "travel camera", "chambre de voyage", or under other names but with that characteristic camera design, mainly made around the year 1900, the Soviet FKD camera maybe even made until ca. 1975. The cameras were foldable for portablility and needed not that very heavy kind of tripod used for studio cameras. Thus not all portable view cameras with the name "Reisekamera", "travel camera" or so followed the mainstream tailboard architecture with rear focusing, some had just the difference of front focusing, for example a Voigtländer Reisekamera of 1890, others tended to be more sophisticated field cameras, for example the Houghtons Ensign Reisekamera (both examples in Abring Vol. 1) as well as other English and French camera models. "Continental View" is another term common for the type of travel camera meant in this article. U. Kulick 13:57, 3 January 2009 (EST)

Edit conflict?

When I look at the present state of the article, I see a mess. There are two introductory sentences, at two different places, and some paragraphs are duplicated. It is obvious that something went wrong, and that there is some sort of "edit conflict". For the moment, I added a "clean-up" banner at the top of the article, so that the readers are conscious that there is some problem, and that this is not a typical Camerapedia article.

I am worried by this situation. Before looking at the article in depth, I first want to state that Camerapedia used to be a quiet place, where the contributors are working together peacefully. I consider this as an important feature of this website, and I'm not prepared to see "edit conflicts" happening here.

When I look at the history page, I see disturbing edits on the part of both main contributors, and an obvious lack of communication: the article, originally created by Jan, was rewritten from scratch, forked, reverts were made with no proper explanation (or comments such as "reducing information loss" with no question asked in the talk page). And I see a complete lack of any meaningful edit summary, other than "contrib", "edit txt" and the like. I urge both contributors to add meaningful edit summaries for each edit, including those made on other articles.

I would like the two main contributors to clarify their views on the talk page before making other edits, and I am confident that this article will be repaired soon, with some efforts and patience on both sides.

--rebollo_fr 09:36, 10 July 2009 (EDT)

Re. Messed up article.

Introducing the Reisekamera at Camerapedia by creating this article seemed a useful contribution at the time, being a quite conspicuously homogenous, yet quite unassuming camera type, of which several seem to be of unknown origin, a fact in itself an intriguing topic. Unfortunately, the result is a mess, as well as an unpleasant experience.

The improved original article, as found now under the heading INTRODUCTION, is self-explanatory, and should need no comment. In the long run it will surely be improved upon and find its proper shape, hopefully by the help of more contributors.

There has not been so much a conflict as a lack of common purpose. The subject of this article has turned into one about bellows cameras, encompassing a wide range of cameras not readily suitable for the Reisekamera heading, possibly allowed by translating and transcribing the entry word. Unfortunately, these cameras do not fit the Reisekamera description, which is worked out quite accurately in detail for the Reisekamera contribution. It is literally impossible, and certainly pointless, to try to incorporate all these cameras into the text, having differing features and descriptions, while at the same time maintain some degree of clarity and usefulness for the Camerapedia reader.

The key features identifying the Reisekamera are indeed the qualities as described by J. M. Eder in 1892, eminently clarified by several illustrations, all without exception, described as showing the Reisekamera, as reproduced in Historische Kameras from the DDR collection by Kleffe and Langner. This book is of course one of several sources for the messed up article in question. Moreover, similar cameras in this book are not called Reisekameras, but Amateurkamera, Shülerkamera and so on, and would therefore need separate encyclopaedic entries. Clearly the two authors already thirty years ago were quite clear about what a Reisekamera was, as was J.M. Eder hundred years before them.

Possibly the present content would benefit from being split into two or perhaps more articles. Wooden bellows cameras could be a starting point. Tailboard cameras might be a subgroup under which the Reisekamera should find its proper place.

With respect, Jan 09.07.11.

Re. Messed up article, II

I have contributed to the best of my abilities freely and without any conditions. I have explained the reason for the way in which the material is compiled. I also understand that anyone may modify or remove any material I have contributed.

At the moment I am forced into a position requiring me to clarify the situation on this talk page before making other edits. I am not obliged to do so under any condition or pressure set forth her by either administrator or any other contributor. However I have tried to clarify my view and suggested a solution, without any response. What I see is just arbitrary postulates and thoughts without focus.

No effort what so ever has been made to understand the encyclopaedic principle, nor to comprehend the clarity inherent in a sound and simple presentation. As already stated, the contribution made is supposed to be self-explanatory, and if this sole purpose is not conveyed, the article has failed - and so have I.

With respect, Jan

Jan

ebay gives from time to time very clarifying illustrations, thus showing details of "Schüler-Kameras", showing that these are indeed small Reisekameras. The other fact You learn from ebay is that half of the tailboards Reisekameras have tapering bellows, not just almost non-tapering bellows like you wrote. Studio cameras are a quite different thing. The tailboard Reisekamera is derived from early portable camera designs. "Judge's Camera" in R.C. Smith is an example, a camera from times when the ideal type of bellows hadn't been found.

I already tried to put my informations together with Yours. You nearly restored your article instead. I tried again to make the best of it, You made that split article. I reordered it, You reordered it again recommending your's as introduction. I hope that we can get together, making that article round and sound, meaning to get all together what we know about Reisekameras. And if You like it or not, we'll get them all aboard, back focusing type and front focusing type Reisekameras. To keep encyclopedic truth. Of course with a huge amount of emphasis on the main old plate camera designs known as Reisekamera. U. Kulick 19:22, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

To Jan and Uwe,

I am pleased to see that you are communicating to improve the article. I apologize if I offended any of you in the somewhat strong message I posted above.

I have extremely limited knowledge of the cameras covered by this article, and I am sorry that I can offer very little help. I have the feeling that the word Reisekamera has two meanings: a broad meaning corresponding to the English "travel camera" and to the French "chambre de voyage", and a narrower meaning used during a period by German manufacturers for a specific type of cameras. I am tempted to suggest splitting the article in two: a broad one about "travel cameras", with an English title, and another for the more restricted meaning, with the German word "Reisekamera" as a title, used as a sort of model name (not a common noun). This is a mere suggestion, which you can obviously disregard.

Best regards,

--rebollo_fr 15:05, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

A sensible solution

To Rebollo fr.

Thanks for your valuable input. I think your suggestion is a sensible and simple solution, which would appear clear to the reader, and I hope Uwe will agree to it too.

I think the Travel Cameras entry should be an in-depth article covering all the various types involved. An introductory article might explain the historical aspect and the variety involved on the line as researched and explained by Uwe, including the full line-up of Travel Cameras.

The Reisekamera article should deal with the type as already worked out, and not contain complete listings of manufacturers and models, but refere to the Travel Cameras article for further information.

With respect, Jan - 16 July 2009

What is a Reisekamera?

Reisekamera was a term mainly used for a certain design of tailboard cameras. Many "Schüler-Kameras" were indeed smaller variants of the tailboard Reisekameras. The Vojta represents a main alternate front focusing design of the Reisekameras. Abring shows in his Vol. I "From Daguerre to Today" a similar German Reisekamera of ca. 1900 and a quite similar Reisekamera of Houghtons. 3 of 9 simpler Reisekameras in H.D. Abring's book are front focusing. One sophisticated tailboard Reisekamera is also shown there, and 4 better front focusing field cameras including the Houghtons and three Gaumont cameras with own design, all presented as Reisekamera.

And there's not just Abring to be mentioned. An important article is this one about the chambre de voyage, explaing us that these were also known as "Continental View", an important information since camerapedia has at least 99% articles in English (Somebody started a series of a few alternate articles in French).

Reisekamera, tailboard camera and chambre de voyage

Despite of some British constructions almost similar to the common Reisekamera the British literature often classify them as tail board cameras, tailboard cameras or otherwise. R.C. Smith, who don't cares for such name conventions, describes George Hare's Improved Portable Bellows Camera of 1878 as back focus camera for smaller plates, a camera that seems to be a good early example of the common camera type that we might classify as something like the Reisekamera. The intro of that chapter describes for comparison an ingenious studio camera construction of Hare. This camera of 1864 has a significant difference: It was also a back focusing camera with swing back but had a front that was movable forward and backward. That's what I've found about the studio cameras seen in books and on ebay, only one of the significant differences between studio cameras and portable tailboard cameras. Hare's portable camera has another kind of swing back than the common Reisekamera. But it's an example for how a camera maker with good knowledge of studio camera making designed a portable tailboard camera.

Chambre de voyage is a French term. It's often used for cameras similar to the common Reisekamera, but maybe also for other field cameras. If we write an article titled "Reisekamera" we should acknowledge different designs only if they are known under the name "Reisekamera". Thus front focusing Reisekameras of German, Austrian, some Czech and maybe some Swiss makers are most probably to be mentioned in the article about the Reisekamera. In my conception of the article is a clear emphasis on the common tailboard design and a brief mentioning of the other designs. I think that is an agreeable conception.

We shouldn't mind if the tailboard camera article would be enhanced by someone, maybe giving some double mentioning of this or that camera, maybe a more British view whilst our article about "Reisekamera" and "Continental View" gives a more central European view. The common tail board type of the Reisekamera is a (once very popular) subtype of the tailboard cameras. Because of its historical inportance as amateur camera and maybe also professional camera it deserves its own article. But we cannot neglect the other ones, the front focusing type Reisekameras. Their mentioning belongs into the same article.

U. Kulick 09:22, 12 July 2009 (EDT)