Talk:Kodak cine lenses
|This is the discussion page for Kodak cine lenses.
The information in this page comes mostly from my personal research: scouring eBay for lenses and serial numbers, and experiences with the lenses that I own. All of the lens dates are recorded conservatively based on my own observations: lens serial numbers, instruction manuals, brochures, and advertising. (In other words, date ranges indicate the oldest and newest dates I've seen for the manufacturer or acknowledgement of lenses in that line) I can't be certain I've seen the oldest and newest examples of lenses in each line, so if you've seen older or newer examples of these lenses, please update the article accordingly. Since most of the information is based on my research, there's not much I can cite, though at some point I could add photos and links for old product manuals and advertising. Others' contributions would be welcome. Balazer (talk) 15:22, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
U. kulick, please use the existing page structure: cameras by mount, and lenses by line, keeping 16 mm lenses separate from 8 mm lenses. You mixed everything up. The magazine cameras all use the same mount, and the 8 mm magazine cameras can use 16 mm lenses. The 50/1.6, 63/2.7, and 76/4.5 lenses indicated as options for the Magazine Cine-Kodak Eight in the 1940 brochure are actually 16 mm lenses, not 8 mm. Most lenses were available in multiple mounts, but they're otherwise identical, so we don't need duplicate listings for them. Balazer (talk) 19:26, 29 March 2014 (PDT)
There are some issues you may want to correct.
The Model B was introduced in 1925, not 1926.
The Model A (type III) that switched to the interchangeable lens mount was introduced in Feb 1926, not 1927.
Linked reference No. 7 is no longer operative, and I have doubts about the information you reference from there. I have been researching this history for more than 25 years, and no mention of an A-mount has ever come up in regard to the Model E camera. It was equipped with either a fixed f/3.5 lens or a standard C-mount. The A and B mounts were both long gone by 1937, as C became the standard for most 16mm cameras, and that letter (A) was not used thereafter to describe any 1-inch diameter lens thread.
Kodak also made an S-mount to C-mount adapter.
I have doubts that the the Cine-Ektons were made by Angenieux, since both Ekton- and Angenieux-badged lenses are found on the Reflex Special, but I have too little data about this, and it bears more research. There certainly was a working relationship between Kodak and Angenieux in those days.
Aside from these minor issues, great article. Michael Cleveland
- Thanks, Michael. I'm no expert and it's possible I've made some mistakes or referenced inaccurate sources. If you know better and you have references, feel free to make corrections to the article. The dates, in particular, I referenced sources for, but they could be wrong. I updated the URL for reference no. 7, so you should be able to view it now. As for the Type A mount of the Model E, I cited a source for that: an Eastman Kodak Company price list. I have no idea why Kodak considered Type A to be distinct from Type C, but they were quite clear that there is a difference, at least in that one source. As noted in the article, Kodak's "Type A" designation is probably no relation to the Bell & Howell A-mount that preceded B-mount and C-mount. The Kodak Reflex Special at worthpoint.com reference is where I saw that the Cine Ekton lenses were made by Angenieux. I don't know how true that is, but I'm pretty sure they weren't made by Kodak. It's a big roster of very fast professional lenses - not something Kodak would have been able to do by themselves for a camera that sold in such small numbers over a short period. Balazer (talk) 23:04, 16 February 2018 (CST)
Unfortunately, I know of no online sources for the dates (and the ones I do encounter for any of this history are often incorrect--one of the reasons I have issues with Wiki's reference requirements. Online sources are secondary, not primary), but I have been researching this history for more than 25 years. The information I have comes from company catalogs, advertising, company publications, and internal company documents. The dates offered are absolutely correct, but I was curious about the A mount, so I checked my own Model E cameras. The earlier one with the threaded f/3.5 lens is, indeed, an A-mount. Very odd, since the camera went into production long after the A and B mounts were history. The difference is in thread depth, and it's subtle enough to go unnoticed very easily. I had never spotted it. The later f/1.4 lens is a standard C-mount and is definitely original to this camera. I have no idea why Kodak would have done this, because it was unnecessary to the particular design of the camera. I think Victor was the last to use A or B mounts, after everyone else had gone to C-mount as a standard, but even they had dropped the odd mount in favor of C by about 1930 . So I stand corrected with that one. I have no argument with the Angenieux/Ekton connection, except to say that Kodak was very capable of producing such lenses at that time (I don't know where this rumor originated that other companies generally made Kodak's camera products, but it's not true). In this case, they may have gone for high-end brand appeal, as Bell & Howell had done by using Cooke lenses instead of a domestic product. I'm not sure why Kodak would have used Ekton badged lenses in some cases, and Angenieux in others, but that's just another of many lines needing further research. I am working on an encyclopedic written history of the first 10 years of the 16mm format for publication. Those early years have been my primary focus, but in all years there still are gaps, and it seems that everything new I learn opens new questions.
- Michael, it would be great if you could scan those old catalogs, advertising, and publications, so we could get them posted here as references. If it's a page or two at a time, they can be uploaded as images in Flickr. That's something you could do yourself, or you could pass the images to me and I could post them. If the documents are longer than a few pages, it would probably be best to have them as PDF files. I can offer hosting for those types of files, which we can link from here as references.
- It's not that we require references for everything here. But when we have a conflicting information, some from references, and some from someone's personal research but with no references, which one seems more believable? I'm inclined to believe what you say over some random web page's assertions, but we'd like to make that case credibly with references.
- Do you mean to say that the Model E's "Type A threaded lens mount" is in fact the same as a Filmo A-mount? Is the difference just that the threads are deeper than C-mount, or is the flange focal distance also different? You said they're not interchangeable, but I wasn't certain why. I had read that some early Filmo lenses used the mount threads as a focusing helicoid. You actually unscrew the lens partway to change focus, with some kind of spring pushing the lens firmly against the threads. But I was never clear on whether the A-mount/B-mount/C-mount designation distinguished which lenses used the mounting threads for focusing and which did not. Do you know? How does it work on your Model E? I've now come full circle. The first place I read about A/B/C-mount differences was a Cine Camera Collectors thread at Yahoo Groups, which I have revisited to find the photo that you posted of the three mounts.
Balazer: Sorry, I didn't mean to drop this. I've been so busy that several things have fallen through the cracks. I'll try to get you source information for what I suggested. There are several possibilities, but I'll dig out the most direct statements I can locate from Kodak catalogs. One of my source documents is a set of internal memos from Kodak that have not been published, but there are catalog and other publication sources that should cover everything. One of the most significant flaws in the wiki concept is the demand for on-line references instead of more reliable original source documents. Ideally, all research should be conscientiously validated before publishing online, but we all know how often that fails, even with good intentions.